Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[sonnyboychris]

Well I think this is interesting, and entirely fair. FFB is obviously very important because that is a huge part of how any wheel user experiences the game. I don't have enough experience of other games so am happy to take your word for it; but I think FFB is separate to the physics model itself, right? You could have the most realistic physics of all time, but with terrible FFB it would be difficult to appreciate it. If anything this is more frustrating since physics are fundamental and FFB is just a question of implementing said physics effectively. Although I may be simplifying this to an extreme degree, I don't really have a clue lol

I think you're pretty spot-on but I'm also not an expert on this. I'd imagine that a detailed physics model would provide a ton of detail for the FFB system.

I'm sure that the physics model for GT7 is more than adequate for the console space and of course there's room for improvement. But it becomes hard for wheeled users to appreciate the physics model when the FFB is constantly nerfed or in some ways numb.

There's no evidence (is there?) that GT has been intentionally handicapped to make it cater to a wide audience.

I think there's definitely a discussion/debate to be had about this but maybe not for the reasons normally stated.

Being that I own ACC and GT7/Sport, there are aspects of ACC that I'd consider to be a more visceral/hardcore experience. Does that make it a better game? No, I wouldn't say so. I believe that GT7's ease of accessibility is a great thing and necessary, especially in the console space. The GT series does an amazing of straddling that line but SOME of what makes it accessible causes it to be a less visceral experience and I believe that's what people define as being hardcore.

For me, the visceral feeling that's missing in GT7 is in relation to car dynamics communicated through a wheel. In ACC, I'm more aware of what the car is doing (or what its not) because I can actually feel it. The tires have a feeling of elasticity in ACC that's absolutely missing in GT7. I can feel that the tires aren't up to temp in ACC without looking at the HUD, that's missing in GT7. That's missing in GT7 in a very nuanced way but it shows up when ur spinning off the track LOL. I know that in GT7 I have to give the car a solid lap before I can really lean into the tires but I can't feel it.

Additionally, PD neuters there FFB strength of their officially licensed wheels AND they do it in an underhanded way. Twice now, a Fanatec wheel is being advertised by PD. The wheel debuts, Fanatec drops the specs. GTPlanet and others review it, they hype the wheel up and rightfully so. The hardware is fine. 3 months into ownership PD neuters the wheel... I'm a 40 years old, I don't need Kaz to protect me lol.

Some would argue that GT7 not throwing all of the simulation/telemetry data in your face makes it less of a sim... Again, this goes back to accessibility. I think what frustrates me and causes me to consider GT a bit lesser, is the fact that PD doesn't make information OPTIONALLY available to us.

As a PSVR2 owner, I've noticed that the information is being displayed in certain cars... Tire temps are displayed in the Ferrari VGT if I'm not mistaken. Certain race info is in the wheel displays of certain Gr.3 cars. The information is there at times but it's disjointed, inconsistent or just not accessible to everyone. The fact that PSVR2 owners don't have a timing screen a year after it's debut....

I've stated before that GT's arcade mode should be the current iteration of the game and that they should have a simulation mode that's displaying all the cool physics/telemetry data that the game is keeping track of.

ACC, nor Iracing, no LFS is any harder to drive than GT7 despite being more "hardcore".

I love this point actually! And it's making me think I should delete everything I've typed above lol. I don't think ACC is harder to drive because it's more hardcore. I think in some ways it's EASIER to drive because the game communicates more info to me as a wheeled user. There's less guessing about what the car is doing or why I'm in the wall because it was communicated to me.


TLDR: I think GT has perfected making racing accessible, they've accommodated the lowest common denominator. PD/Kaz needs to give an equal amount of attention to the players who want a bit more. And truly focus on perfecting some of their broken gameplay/systems.

 

[P-Courty]

Even in time trial with no wear there is still tyre temps. If you have the tyre temp app you can see this. I remember the TT with Viper at Blue Moon, the tyres were mushy by the 2nd lap because it was sliding all over the place.

I have the app, that's how I know the temps change, but the thing is once the tires are warm they lose grip whereas it should be the other way around.

Like on a track day if I set low psi around 23 to start, I can feel my car squirm with tire flex but as they warm up over laps the car becomea more stable but GT7 is the opposite way around.

 

[Td04]

I think you're pretty spot-on but I'm also not an expert on this. I'd imagine that a detailed physics model would provide a ton of detail for the FFB system.

I'm sure that the physics model for GT7 is more than adequate for the console space and of course there's room for improvement. But it becomes hard for wheeled users to appreciate the physics model when the FFB is constantly nerfed or in some ways numb.



I think there's definitely a discussion/debate to be had about this but maybe not for the reasons normally stated.

Being that I own ACC and GT7/Sport, there are aspects of ACC that I'd consider to be a more visceral/hardcore experience. Does that make it a better game? No, I wouldn't say so. I believe that GT7's ease of accessibility is a great thing and necessary, especially in the console space. The GT series does an amazing of straddling that line but SOME of what makes it accessible causes it to be a less visceral experience and I believe that's what people define as being hardcore.

For me, the visceral feeling that's missing in GT7 is in relation to car dynamics communicated through a wheel. In ACC, I'm more aware of what the car is doing (or what its not) because I can actually feel it. The tires have a feeling of elasticity in ACC that's absolutely missing in GT7. I can feel that the tires aren't up to temp in ACC without looking at the HUD, that's missing in GT7. That's missing in GT7 in a very nuanced way but it shows up when ur spinning off the track LOL. I know that in GT7 I have to give the car a solid lap before I can really lean into the tires but I can't feel it.

Additionally, PD neuters there FFB strength of their officially licensed wheels AND they do it in an underhanded way. Twice now, a Fanatec wheel is being advertised by PD. The wheel debuts, Fanatec drops the specs. GTPlanet and others review it, they hype the wheel up and rightfully so. The hardware is fine. 3 months into ownership PD neuters the wheel... I'm a 40 years old, I don't need Kaz to protect me lol.

Some would argue that GT7 not throwing all of the simulation/telemetry data in your face makes it less of a sim... Again, this goes back to accessibility. I think what frustrates me and causes me to consider GT a bit lesser, is the fact that PD doesn't make information OPTIONALLY available to us.

As a PSVR2 owner, I've noticed that the information is being displayed in certain cars... Tire temps are displayed in the Ferrari VGT if I'm not mistaken. Certain race info is in the wheel displays of certain Gr.3 cars. The information is there at times but it's disjointed, inconsistent or just not accessible to everyone. The fact that PSVR2 owners don't have a timing screen a year after it's debut....

I've stated before that GT's arcade mode should be the current iteration of the game and that they should have a simulation mode that's displaying all the cool physics/telemetry data that the game is keeping track of.



I love this point actually! And it's making me think I should delete everything I've typed above lol. I don't think ACC is harder to drive because it's more hardcore. I think in some ways it's EASIER to drive because the game communicates more info to me as a wheeled user. There's less guessing about what the car is doing or why I'm in the wall because it was communicated to me.


TLDR: I think GT has perfected making racing accessible, they've accommodated the lowest common denominator. PD/Kaz needs to give an equal amount of attention to the players who want a bit more. And truly focus on perfecting some of their broken gameplay/systems.

This evening i drove M3 e92 on both gt7 and AC. I used comfort soft tires on gt7 and street tires on AC.
I have a t300gt wheel.
Even if Ffb on gt7 sucks totally, i feel way more comfortable to drive on it ( and i think Ffb Is the better thing AC does).
On gt7 The car is totally predictable,not snappy at all, the room between under and oversteer is wide,and i can hold slide without problems. The car is really well weight balanced,but i am able to shift weight a lil with brake,doing some trailbraking even if Isn't the car which react most to it. I can use even the Power,over the corner's apex ,to let the rear open a Lil and help me go out faster.

Now on AC,Ffb is really good and car behaviour is almost the same (like all Cars i compared in both games)...i mean they behave kinda same,they don't seems 2 different cars,but on AC there is something off, and i can say this for others cars tested too,but now i am talking about m3 in particoular.
First thing, when i steering the cars seems softboiled,like a boat on Sea,and want keep to lose its control.
I know that this is an unpopular opinion,but i find slip angle a lot more narrow on AC. Hold a slide is way more harder,and i could say nothing wrong with It,but the problem is that car start to spin slowly even at slow speed,medium rpm 3d gear, and if you try to countersteer you Will get that snap oversteer which Is even in forza games when u set pad on simulation.
Another thing is that weight shift on Ac Is almost not existent. Drive is way more "flat" and matters a lot less how and how much brake,throttle and steering you apply in comparision to gt7 ( gt7 used to Be exaggerrated in its first realeses,but now is spot on,in my opinion).
Where gt lose in comparision to ac and Acc,always my opinion,is about features like TC, setups,tire pressure and heat and this kind of stuff.. Here is more generic,accesible. But physics engine is better, my unpopular opinion.

Side note: driving is intuitive,and drive at limit and below on a sim should be easier than real life.
If a sim give you the message that even exit to your garage to go supermarket (it's an hyperbole) is hard,well, something Is off. AC give me these vibes.
Gt7,now,feels "Natural" to me.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I feel like the lateral grip has been reduced slightly since the last update. I need to take more care when accelerating out of corners in rear-drive or 4 wheel drive cars or I'll get a small snap of oversteer. Either that or I've become too used to traction control in Assetto Corsa Competizione.

 

[ScottPuss20]

On second thoughts, I don't think the lateral grip has been reduced.

 

[Td04]

After discovered that t300 is PS3 compatible i went back to play some laps on GT6.
I remember i like GT6 physics more than gt sport, but i really wonder how is better than gt7 too in many departments.
Ffb is way way better and steering too. Some cars,like Rr and Mr Cars, that require more precision on the steering can punish you with oversteer while turning if you exceed steering. Something that won't happen in gt7, where the Ffb start to vibrate and be hard and don't "allows" (well you could,but feels unnatural) you to go over some steering degree. Many (all?) cars has too much understeer while cornering.
I prefer ABS too on GT6,i feel u have to pay more attention cause abs is less perfect than GT7. Gt7 Is more unforgiving while you release brake and this is maybe the only thing i prefer to gt7 over GT6,while many Cars are too much planted under brake.
GT6 tire model is better than GT7 one, with more progression between under and oversteer and more slip angle. Due the better Ffb and steering,catching slides Is way more satisfying.

Another thing i prefer on gt7 is torque feeling. Powerful cars are more unforgiving, alive, and u can cleary feel difference between a turbocharged engine and a more linear Na..gt7 needs a lil more throttle control and i appreciate It.
Gt7 has a more Advanced areo model too..
So i feel gt7 has more advanced features,but lost important fundmental things, like a better ffb, steering and more progressive tire model.
I am actually having more fun driving on gt6

 

[Keef]

Some cars,like Rr and Mr Cars, that require more precision on the steering can punish you with oversteer while turning if you exceed steering. Something that won't happen in gt7, where the Ffb start to vibrate and be hard and don't "allows" (well you could,but feels unnatural) you to go over some steering degree.

Do you think traction circle physics is capable of explaining how more steering angle could cause oversteer? I'm not so sure that's the case.

In GT7, when you turn the steering wheel to the point where the FFB is vibrating, what that's communicating to you is the limit of the tire's traction. The tire has begun to slip a little bit. If you increase your steering angle beyond that point it begins to feel "unnatural" because it is - the tire is now skidding across the ground, incapable of doing what you want it to do because you've exceeded its traction limits.

GT7 is by no means a fully realistic simulator but it does get some things right. The understeer you speak of is very typical of road cars. Most real cars are tuned for understeer for safety, even most sports cars tend to understeer at the limit.

 

[Td04]

Do you think traction circle physics is capable of explaining how more steering angle could cause oversteer? I'm not so sure that's the case.

In GT7, when you turn the steering wheel to the point where the FFB is vibrating, what that's communicating to you is the limit of the tire's traction. The tire has begun to slip a little bit. If you increase your steering angle beyond that point it begins to feel "unnatural" because it is - the tire is now skidding across the ground, incapable of doing what you want it to do because you've exceeded its traction limits.

GT7 is by no means a fully realistic simulator but it does get some things right. The understeer you speak of is very typical of road cars. Most real cars are tuned for understeer for safety, even most sports cars tend to understeer at the limit.

I know that when the ffb start vibrating is where tires are at limit of their grip. I mean the Ffb feeling Is unnatural,at least for me,never liked It, even if i like gt7's physics.
About understeer,i agree, but on gt7 there is too much on every cars.
GT6 has a more natural steering (u can actually use "too much steering", and this can punish you) prefer its ffb by far, and has more progression between under to oversteer.

I still like gt7,but I feel the game did some step forward and some backs in comparision to its predecessor (a PS3 game lol),and can't understand why.

 

[Maciaty]

I just wanted to chime in, with my entirely subjective opinion.
I have some experience with most of the PC titles, I have a PCVR and I used that too, and in RL always owned cars meant to be driven in a spirited manner, and I did some track time as well.
Sure, theres a difference in ffb detail, GT7 is quite bland in this department, but I never had a feeling that the physics are unrealistic, that Im forced to re-learn driving, at least the cars Im driving in game.
For me it speaks volumes, that with all the choices I have, all the seemingly superior PC titles, I will always pick GT7. It's a complete package, and most importantly it's consistently delivering on the competition aspect, the online races, and this is what matters the most for me. And so easy to get in.
Yesterday Ive had such an awesome session on PSVR2, that I popped a blood vessel in my eye
Moar.